The Stoler Report: Affordable Housing in New York City

has a crisis and the crisis is there’s not enough affordable
housing in New York City. And where can we build it?
There’s not enough land. There’s not enough
space. There’s not enough money. There’s a
variety of problems. But I don’t
know the answers, so I’ve
assembled with my buddy, the executive producer of
the show, Chuck Brass, today, a group of individuals who can tell people what’s
happening in affordable housing, how they might be
able to find an affordable housing and all the
different discussion on that. I’m very lucky to
have Gary Rodney, who is the president of
New York City Housing Development
Corporation, Dan Moritz, who is a principle at
the Arker Companies, Eli Weiss, who’s
the director at Joy Construction, and
last but not least, as I said, the man
responsible for bringing this group
together, Chuck Brass, who is a principle at
Forsyth Street Advisors.>>>CHARLES BRASS: Advisors,
right.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: And the
former president of New York City Housing
Development Corporation.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: I should also
preface that with the exception of Dan, this is the
alumni association of HDC. Also, for the last
clarification, 14 years ago when I started the show, the first
show of The Stoler Report, I had a show on affordable
housing and it hasn’t changed much. And one of my
guests was Chuck Brass, live from Charlotte’s Kosher
Restaurant in the Sony Center.>>>CHARLES BRASS: We had a
little table in the back. You could hear them dropping
the dishes, clearing the tables.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: So okay, Chuckie, so what has changed in
14 years in affordable housing?>>>CHARLES BRASS: That’s a good
question. I think what’s changed is we have a mature — more
mature industry. The programs that are
around today are very similar to the ones
that were in effect then, but that was really
the very beginning of certainly with regard
to the programs that HDC runs. We were just creating
them and starting them.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: You know, you
could go up to the Bronx and find land that was
owned by the city. You could get the land for a dollar or for
very minimal amounts. That’s when Harlem, when Jeff
Levine built the affordable ->>>CHARLES BRASS: Co-op.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Co-op on
116th Street. This was a different time. Today we don’t
have that situation. So here, I have to look
at the two developers over here. Why does a developer — I
know you’re very altruistic, you want to help the state. Why
do you become an affordable housing? First you and
then Mr. Weiss.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Sure,
I would say becoming an affordable
housing developer, you’re in a market that is
essentially market proof. It’s consistent in good times.
It’s consistent in bad times. You’re never going to have a
project that is a homerun, but you’re going to do very
well with constant projects — singles type of projects. And it’s a good consistent
business and we always have a high
demand for apartments.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: You
don’t have a vacancy.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: We run
under one percent vacancy. And when we open up a new
building, we get tens of thousands of applications for a
hundred apartments.>>>MICHAEL STOLER:
Let’s talk about that. Eli, you were saying just
prior to the show that you’re building a
building in Crown Heights.>>>ELI WEISS: Correct.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Tell
me a little bit about it, how you found the land and
how much of the building is affordable and
the lottery system, which I think is very
important to discuss.>>>ELI WEISS: Sure. So the site that we’re talking
about is on Franklin Avenue. And the building is actually
called Elliot J Hobbs Garden. Elliot Hobbs was a banker at JP
Morgan Chase for many years, who was a real pillar in the
affordable housing industry and great person and a great
professional. He unfortunately passed
away two years ago and my partners and I, we renamed
the building in honor or Elliot. The building is 93 units. It’s
essentially an 80/20. However, the 80 ->>>MICHAEL STOLER: Explain—No
more inside baseball. Explain to my
audience what an 80/20 is.>>>ELI WEISS: Sure. 80 percent of the
units are middle income, so they’re set with rents
up to 130 percent of New York City’s area
median income.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: And what is
New York City’s area median ->>>ELI WEISS: New York City’s
area median income for a family of four is about $85,000.>>>MICHAEL STOLER:So
it’s $85,00 at 135, means it’s,
like, $112,000.>>>ELI WEISS:
That’s right. The rents are set at
130 percent of AMI, but people who can make up
to 175 percent of AMI are also eligible to
live in that building. So you have 80 percent of
the unit set for middle income tenants, as
I just described. And then 20 percent people
who are considered low income, which are people
who earn 40 or 50 percent of that 80 percent number.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Which
is probably between 18 to 27,000 I think,
something in that range. So on both sides of
the 93 apartments, is there a lottery
for all of them?>>>ELI WEISS: There is. There’s
a lottery for all of the units. The lottery is something
that’s set up that you work in
conjunction with HDC. There’s a very
sophisticated and talented marketing staff at HDC,
so starting about a year before you
anticipate occupancy, you set up a meeting
with HDC to discuss the marketing guidelines for the
building, the timing of the->>>MICHAEL STOLER:
So since you’re discussing — I want Gary to talk about that.
What do you do over there?>>>GARY RODNEY: On
the marketing end, I will sit down with
the developer staff. In this case,
Eli and his team. We’ll go through the
marketing materials. We’ll go through kind of
the ad that will be placed in the newspaper. We’ll also discuss kind of
what the income ranges are that will be
allowed for each unit.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: When do you
put the ad in the newspaper and when does it go on the website
that the apartment’s going to->>>ELI WEISS: Six
to eight months prior to TCO.>>>GARY RODNEY: About
six to eight months before you’re actually ready
to have people move in.>>>MICHAEL STOLER:
Now, Eli said before, you had how many
applications for the>>>ELI WEISS:
Roughly 51,00 for the 93 unit.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: 51,000,
so it’s truly like winning a lottery. But part of the problem
is the income bands. If certain people
have said to me, “I could qualify, but if
I make $20 more than that income band, I’m out.”
What does that->>>GARY RODNEY: That has to do
with how we structure the financing for the deal. So in Eli’s case, we have
20 percent of the building that are lower
income levels, 80 percent are at
higher income levels. But as he described, we
try to give them a band to work with so you don’t
have so much of an issue with somebody
who’s slightly over. However, the
rules are the rules. And we do need to kind of stick
within those income guidelines. Otherwise, it throws our->>>MICHAEL STOLER: Now here
is the question. When somebody
gets one of these, wins the lottery for one
of these 93 apartments, how long are they allowed
to be in that apartment?>>>GARY RODNEY: As
long as they want to.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Let’s
say that person at this time is just
starting their career, their business career, and
they’re earning X dollars. And their world changes
and their business does well. They are protected for
life for that apartment?>>>CHARLES BRASS: Through
rent stabilization — well, these buildings
are always subject to rent stabilization and they’re
therefore able to get a lease renewal as of
right or whatever the rent guidelines board approves,
eventually in some cases, the restrictions
may fade away. But that’s very far off
in the distant future.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Someone could
be moving into your building or someone could be moving into
an 80/20 in Manhattan->>>GARY RODNEY: Correct.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: -which
would have 20 percent affordable or even
different rates and they could be protected for the rest of
their life at this market rate, which now reduces the
possibility of, as I was saying, the increased number
of people moving into the city.>>>ELI WEISS: I think that’s
something we would all want to see. I think that
providing somebody with an affordable and quality
home at the time when they need it and they’re
income qualified, you want to see that —
you’d like to think that that home was part of the
platform that allowed them to do better, that allowed
them to focus on their professional life, that
helped them get that. And you don’t want to see the two
factors, their sort of success.>>>GARY RODNEY: You don’t
want to penalize somebody.>>>MICHAEL STOLER:
I’m not disagreeing. I’m just trying to go through
all the philosophies over here.>>>CHARLES BRASS: But
there is an argument to be said, that if someone gets
an affordable apartment and are paying $800 a
month and five years, ten years later,
they’re making $400,00 a year, that it would be better if that
apartment could turn over so that you could give an
opportunity to somebody else. But that’s not the way
the law works in New York.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Here’s my
question. You had this land. You could have made this
building 100 percent market rate. Why’d you build as an
affordable housing?>>>ELI WEISS: It was a
combination of reasons. Number one, at the time when we
bought the land, the market there wasn’t as robust and
strong as it is today. Number two real estate
development in New York is driven by — especially new
construction, by tax abatement. Part of securing a long term tax
abatement on the site would be to put an affordable
component on the site anyway. And at the time, the rents
that I was describing, the middle income rents,
those 130 percent of AMA rents, weren’t really that
far off from the market rate. So when you combine that
with the plethora of sort of financing goodies that
go along with working with a government
program, it made sense.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Chuck, I mean
as I said, you were president of HDC,
you were with CPC, you’ve been involved
with all these things. Today, you’re more of an
advisor to many companies with regard to structuring
and the finance. Who’s coming to you? Are regular developers
coming to you for advice on this type of market?>>>CHARLES BRASS: Well, we have
all kinds of clients coming to us. We have a lot of->>>MICHAEL STOLER: The good,
the bad and the ugly?>>>CHARLES BRASS: Yes. We
try and weed out the ugly. We try and separate the
bad from the not so bad. So almost
anybody is redeemable. We can make
anybody look good, at least we
try to think so. But we have, for
example, in our 80/20, we do some consulting for
developers who are doing 80/20 projects, the ones
who are established and have been doing
it for a while, who did it back even
when HDC was doing 80/20s, they don’t come to us. There’s a whole new cadre
of developers who either have no
experience developing, very little experience or they
were condo developers but for some reason, they own a site
where they feel that they either have to do 80/20 or they want
to and they need advice on — because the rules are very
complicated.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: So
let me throw my initial question to all of you and each
one see who wants to pick it up. The amount of developable land
has been diminished over the year. We don’t have that much
land in the New York City– in the report, which is on
your website. Great, go to There’s
a report on the housing->>>GARY RODNEY: The
housing of New York.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: The
housing of New York. Where can we build? How can we increase
the number of units? I know that you’ve done
work in preservation, in a number of
preservation deals. We have projects
today where there’s large potential, affordable
is Hunters Point, the domino deal,
the Hallets Point, East New York, certain
parts of the Bronx, even in Manhattan or maybe
Washington Heights if we build up. Where can we find the
affordable housing and how do we build more
affordable housing? Who wants to try to
answer that question?>>>DANIEL MORITZ: The biggest
issue, like you said today, is finding land to build
affordable housing. And HDC and HPD have great
programs available to help us with the tools we need
to build new construction, but the
challenge, again for us, is finding land that
fits into the bucket.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: So
let’s say we find the land. Can’t we, through
certain programs or other opportunities like the
inclusionary housing program, which gives
certain people — we’re also doing affordable
housing for supportive housing. We’re doing it for
homeless people. We’re having all
these type of things. If we build higher, we can
possibly get more apartments.>>>ELI WEISS: Absolutely.>>>GARY RODNEY: I think we
have to get more creative. As you mentioned before,
in different neighborhoods there were spots
of land available. Now, it’s not so much. So
we have to build taller, we have to build a little
bit denser and we have to kind of think about
locations that weren’t the number one spots
that everybody went to. But I think there would actually
still be good locations. And I’ll also say kind
of building a little bit bigger isn’t putting a 45
story building in Crown Heights. It could be the difference
of going from a six or seven story building
to maybe eight or nine. I think there are plenty
of opportunities there, the fact that we’ve
got a good team on the administration side
working together, both from city
planning, HPD, HDC. Maybe there’s going
to be some additional possibilities in
building on NYCHA land.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Let’s
talk about the NYCHA land. NYCHA land,
for my audience, is New York City
Housing Authority land, sometimes also
known as the projects. But a lot of the
NYCHA land had parking, has parking, has density
possibilities and where you can take that land
— maybe take over the parking, maybe you
can build above ground parking, structured
parking and then you can have housing over there. And in many of
these NYCHA locations, these are- The city is
gentrified very well, so it’s a big difference. So the
NYCHA is a good possibility. Have you pursued
NYCHA?>>>ELI WEISS: I have not,
but I’ve looked at the RFPs. Typically, the process is
a request for a proposal for a NYCHA
piece of property. So far, I’ve not
submitted for one. I’ve looked at them.
They’re fairly complicated. It’s sort of like going
back to the inclusion area. Many times — and the
programs of HDC and HPD are great, but in
today’s market, when things move so
quickly in terms of land and making
execution decisions, the timing of the programs
and getting in and making sure that you’re going to
secure a piece of property and you’re
spending time and focus, it doesn’t
move fast enough.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Chuck,
would you explain what inclusionary
housing means?>>>CHARLES BRASS: Sure. Inclusionary housing is
basically under the zoning there may be a certain, what’s
called a floor area ratio, meaning if a
lot is a certain size, you can build a building
with five times the square foot. For example, a
10,000 square foot lot, you could build a
50,000 square foot lot. In exchange for building
affordable housing under the inclusionary
housing program, the city might let you build a
60,00 square foot building, instead of a 50,00
square foot building. But you’d have to set
aside a portion of the units for people
at a lower rent.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: And they
are on site or offsite today?>>>CHARLES BRASS: In
most of the inclusionary programs, they have to be on
site. There are a couple. There’s the original
inclusionary program. There’s still one
where you can do offsite.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Now
there’s the question of — and you know my audience
always likes to know, when somebody builds
a building — you’re building this 93 unit
development and Arker has always been very
involved in preservation, I know a lot in
Far Rockaway and new buildings. Are the units different
for the 20 percent of the units or are
they the same?>>>ELI WEISS: So in the
buildings that we’re building, they’re the same
mostly because the entire building is under an
affordable program and go through a design
guideline by HPD and HDC. So the units are
exactly the same. You can’t tell the difference
between any of the units. They’re dispersed equally
throughout all of the building. There’s no difference
between the amenities. There’s no
separate lobbies. This is truly programmatic
affordable housing from the beginning,
from everything, from the
financing to the design, working in conjunction
with the government agency.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: But
what about the other discussion where there are
certain apartments within a 80/20, which
is open market, any rent that you can get,
and then there’s 20 percent, which is the
affordable component. Are there any differences
in those apartments?>>>GARY RODNEY: Very minor. It may be the difference
between the countertops or things like that in
the appliance package. But for the most part, the unit
sizes, they’re very similar. They’re supposed to be
proportional across the building in terms of if
whatever number of one bedrooms and two
bedrooms or studios, you have to have an equal
percentage of the low income->>>CHARLES BRASS:
In certain instances, the affordable apartments
may actually be better than the market rate
apartments because there are certain design
guidelines that the city has for those
affordable apartments, which make them actually
be larger than what a developer may want
for a market rate.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: And now
how many years do these apartments have to
remain affordable?>>>GARY RODNEY: Depending
on which program you’re referring to — in
the case of the 80/20s, it’s usually for the
length of our mortgage or I should say the
tax abatement, so it can go out 30 years,
sometimes a little bit longer. In the case of the
inclusionary deals that Chuck was
describing earlier, those are usually done in
perpetuity because once your building is
done, it’s built, you’ve received
that extra benefit.>>>MICHAEL STOLER:
Dan was trying to say, prior to the show, you’re
not going for homeruns, you’re going for singles. How could you make a
profit for 20 years when the rents are so low? I understand the taxes are
lower, but what else is lower?>>>DANIEL MORITZ:
Well basically, as an affordable
housing developer, we’re making a trade in
exchange for the upside on rents and upside in
increase in valuation because of the
cap on our rents. We make a fee up front in
exchange for developing affordable housing. That’s
typically about 10 percent of the total development costs. And so it’s a trade off in
exchange for->>>MICHAEL STOLER: And then you
get a management fee also.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Right
and we continue to manage the properties. We manage
everything that we own. But it’s a tradeoff. You’re trading away
the future upside.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: What happens
when we call a HAP contract? People are
buying HAP buildings. Why do developers buy HAP
buildings and explain what a HAP building is.>>>GARY RODNEY: I’ll jump
in because I used to live this every day for
a very long time. A HAP contract is a
housing assistance payment contract from the federal
government. It’s a Section 8. So the Section 8 contract is
with the building and typically HUD will cover approximately
70 percent of your rent.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: So if the
tenant really can’t afford — if the rent is $12,00 — $1,000,
let’s use it, the government or HUD will
give $700 towards it and the individual
will take $300.>>>GARY RODNEY: Yes
and in some cases if the individual can’t
afford to pay the $300, sometimes HUD will
cover a little bit more. That varies on
building by building.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: So why do
people buy HAP contract deals?>>>GARY RODNEY: Stable income.
It’s very steady income.>>>CHARLES BRASS: A check
every month from Uncle Sam->>>ELI WEISS: It’s
a credit worthy tenant. You have a 70 percent
master lease to Uncle Sam.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Basically, you’re underwriting the
federal government as opposed to
underwriting tenants.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: Now,
but a number of these HAP buildings are trying to
become out of the HAP program. There have
been discussions.>>>CHARLES BRASS: Without
getting too complicated, basically if you have a
contract with HUD for a Section 8 and you’re in a
really good market area, you can actually
go to HUD and say, “I have the choice to opt
out of the program or pay me the market rent if
you want to keep these buildings affordable.”
So in that case, if you’re paying
$1,000 a month, but you’re really in
Manhattan or even in certain other neighborhoods
that are now trendy, where market rents are very
high, HUD will pay you $3,000.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: I
remember the Cherry Street. I remember the deal that
Apollo was involved with DVL. The units can go higher.>>>CHARLES BRASS: Yes,
so HUD will pay you $3,00 a month if you’re
in Manhattan or $4,00 a month to preserve
the affordable housing.>>>ELI WEISS: -at the beginning
of the century, 10, 12 years ago, this is what was going
on with the Mitchell-Lama. Whether it was
Independence Plaza or Waterside Plaza, it
was the same concept. These buildings were built
at a time where they were working within a
government program and the rents were set to some
level of affordability and times changed and the
neighborhoods changed and the owners wanted to
opt out of the program.>>>GARY RODNEY:
And in many cases, they were creating the market
at that point in time. So that’s part of the reason
for these government programs. It helps to incentivize
folks like Eli and Dan to kind of go into these
neighborhoods and actually make it cost effective
and beneficial to build.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: And HUD
doesn’t want to lose these units, so that’s’ why
they’re willing to pay the market rent in order to
keep the units affordable because a lot of
these projects are large, a lot of units and they’d hate
to lose all of the affordable->>>MICHAEL STOLER: But not every
apartment in a HAP contract has to be a HUD apartment.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Generally, it’s 90 percent or more of the
units are under the contract.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: If the
tenant moves out and you can get a market rate
tenant, you’re allowed?>>>CHARLES BRASS: No, if
you sign a new contract, the tenant moves out,
then you have to rent to another low income tenant.>>>ELI WEISS: It’s a regulatory
agreement against the->>>MICHAEL STOLER: And
how does somebody get into a HAP building? Because I heard
about the lottery now. How did somebody get
into a building later on?>>>GARY RODNEY: So
depending on the program, it’s slightly different. In
the HAP contract buildings, there’s a waiting list. The
owner of that building, or the management company,
has to go through the waiting list in the
order that they come in.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: And the
waiting list is then based on the income bands
that we discussed earlier?>>>GARY RODNEY: The
HAP contract buildings, they’re actually a little
bit different and those buildings, the maximum
income is at 80 percent of the area of median income. So that’s just shy of
$70,00 for a family of four.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Right
and it can go basically all the way down to 0
because the structure of the HAP contract is that
they’ll pay 30 percent, or the tenant will pay 30
percent of their income towards rent,
whatever their income is. So it can be down to 0 or
can be up to 80 percent.>>>GARY RODNEY: And in
the other buildings, for example, in Eli’s
middle income project in Crown Heights, he has to
go through the lottery system for the first
initial rent up and then after that, he will be
able to kind of rent to the open market, so to speak. But it’s provided that
they meet the income bands that we’ve established
for the property.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: The
income bands and so on. What about — there was
once something called affordable cooperatives. We were talking before,
Jeff Levine’s on 116th Street. What happened to
the affordable coops?>>>CHARLES BRASS: Well,
they’re still out there, the ones that were built. It’s not an active program
that the city has anymore. Really in the
financial recession, in 2007 and 8, this was an
affordable housing market that actually was effected. We
talked about the rental market, demand is constant.
But even in that->>>DANIEL MORITZ: It
became very difficult for the end buyers
to get end loans.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: No,
but here’s something right now. I know that there’s a
building being built on First Avenue by
Toll Brothers. And I believe that 20
percent of the apartments — and it’s a condo. So how are they doing affordable
condos in the building?>>>CHARLES BRASS: I
don’t believe that the affordable units
will be condominiums. They’ll be rentals
in all likelihood.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Right. What they may do is have a
condo for the 20 percent of the units, which
will end up actually being affordable rentals.>>>ELI WEISS: It’s a
method to get a tax abatement.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: I
understood that they are going to be
affordable condos. So somebody’s going to be
able to get a $400->>>ELI WEISS: They’ll
try to sell.>>>GARY RODNEY: Without
knowing the particulars of this exact deal, it could just
be an internal cross subsidy, where they’re
agreeing to sell some units at a lower income to
benefit from a tax abate.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: I
remember a number of units were built in the Rockaways.
These were affordable houses, the three family, and the
biggest problem is these people couldn’t
qualify for mortgages.>>>ELI WEISS: Right, I think
it’s an availability issue. As the financial crisis happened
and loans became difficult for anybody- I mean, if you had any K-1 income, you
couldn’t get an end loan.>>>CHARLES BRASS: Even Ben
Bernake says he can’t get a mortgage.>>>ELI WEISS: And now you
have an underwriter for end loans looking at
a fairly complicated regulatory agreement and
a complicated financing structure and
it’s just passed.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: It
sounds like we do have a potential crisis because
we have more people. The good part is people
want to come to New York. The bad part is there aren’t
that many apartments, so people are
going to have to look at areas where they
didn’t plan to be before. Maybe there will be more
development on Staten Island.>>>DANIEL MORITZ:
We’re working on it.>>>CHARLES BRASS: We just
advised — development building the first
80/20 rental housing project in Staten Island on the
side of the old home port. Iron State Development, going
to be an 800 unit development.>>>DANIEL MORITZ: And
we’re going to break ground in January on a new senior housing
project in Staten Island.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: And
the senior housing is affordable and it’s
also based on the lottery, the same concept there?>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Exactly.>>>MICHAEL STOLER: But
those are available at the age 62 and
over, I believe. Correct?>>>DANIEL MORITZ: Correct.>>>MICHAEL
STOLER: So I think, in my 14th
season — Chuck, you were there
from day one. Hopefully you’ll be there
after the 700th show, which we’ll do
later on in the fall. I’d like to have all
of you back and we’ll continue this discussion
on affordable housing. I’d like to
thank Gary, Dan, Eli and needless
to say, Chuck. Thanks for being here and
I’ll see you next week. ♪♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪♪

3 thoughts on “The Stoler Report: Affordable Housing in New York City

  1. Affordable housing in NYC…. I want to make one thing clear: high rents in NYC are due to the city's policies of unfair taxation on new development, a foolish and overly restrictive zoning code, an incredibly inefficient and corrupt Department of Buildings and Department of Housing Preservation and Development, and completely unjust state liability laws. It may be hard to make the connection between these policies and high rents, but in essence they all serve to make all but the most expensive housing unfeasible to develop in this city. When you restrict supply as demand rises, prices go up. End of story. If we want lower rents, higher quality housing, more tax revenue to develop our public institutions such as schools and parks, more construction employment, and an overall higher standard of living, we'll have to completely reform these policies. There, I just gave the solution to NYC's affordable housing problem. Short of these reforms, rents will continue to escalate absent a downturn in our economy.


  3. Lets be honest some you racist ass people have been doing these's affordable housing apartments for over 20 years. Us Blacks and Hispanics are just now catching on. There is an 8 or 10 years waiting list for some of these places, so don't come out your mouth judging us for wanting to live comfortably. We deserve to live comfortable because we get up and go to work to pay our bills and put food on the table just like you.

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